We don't have a lot of cedar shake in my area, and where I do have it, I have not marketed to heavily. I have done some cedar plank siding to prep for staining, but have not yet tackled shake siding. I received a call from a customer who recently purchased a home built in the 60's with cedar shake that probably has never been maintained. I know there is more of this in the PNW and NE states. Below are some pics.
I have several questions. First, should I tackle this at all, or recommend a wood restoration company? Second, if I do this, what sort of results could I (and the customer) expect? If you have advice and have done a project like this, pics would be helpful. Third, any advice on the process would be greatly appreciated.
Chad, just an fyi- Any 'treatment' applied to either cedar shake or cedar shingle will shorten the lifespan considerably. They interfere with the woods natural ability to expand and contract. So. Cal was 90% shake or wood shingle during my roofing career and I witnessed every one of these 'treatments' fail. Being this is siding and not roofing-maybe nobody cares, but at least you can educate your customer of the pros and cons. Personally I would only attempt to clean/restore it like a cedar fence and leave it natural.
Bob Riddick said
May 2, 2015
Chad, there are several SWS companies doing a large amount of cedar shingle and cedar shake restoration. Jay Mariano on the Jersey Shore does tons, and has a wide array of pictures.
You need to start with right % solution. Sometimes 2% is adequate, sometimes you need 4%. From your pictures, I think 2% is sufficient. You want to be careful not to "bleach out" the shake. Pre wet the shake. This opens the spores of the micro fungus. Spray your solution and let it dwell 5-10 minutes. The dwell time is determined by the amount of fungus, similar to the % solution needed.
The pictures show more weathering than fungus, so less dwell time. Then rinse and rinse some more. In highly infested cedar shake, you can treat it once and rinse the rest of the day. Although I have yet to try the new Wood Restore by SWS, what I've read tells me you want to use it as your final treatment to bring out the desired color and as a protectant.
AC just started a thread on Wood Restore on the BB. You will want to read through that. Lots of good info. on a brand new product. I'm ordering some on Monday.
There is enough information on cedar shakes on the BB to answer the rest of your questions. I would get comfortable with the process and take on the project. Remember to add enough time into your quote for rinsing, then returning later to treat with Wood Restore.
Chad Eneix said
May 2, 2015
I am most interested in setting the right expectations for the customer. I guess having never done shake like this, I am mostly concerned with the "blackened" areas, which on some sides of the home is most of the shake, especially the top 1=2" of each shake where it is overlapped by the one above it. Will this come all the way off? Will I get an even result? What sort of color will it be when finshed, etc?
Steve Mazzuca said
May 2, 2015
Exactly my point Chad, the term restoration can really mislead a customer. When it comes to cedar shake/shingle my experience says you can maybe restore the appearance (short term) but you will not restore or extend it's lifespan. The companies out here that had initial success telling the customers they could do both, eventually crashed and burned.....big time.
Michael Derose said
May 2, 2015
Chad we hit this siding with a 2 % mix. We prewet the siding first then applied the mix let dwell then touched up as necessary. After we applied ox acid then rinsed again. This was the result.
The pre wet stage is so that the wood doesn't soak up the chemical. We want to treat the top layer only not allowing the mix to absorb all the way through causing the wood to break down. You can also cut the soap in half as well to help on the rinsing.
Chad Eneix said
May 2, 2015
Michael,
Thanks, that looks really good. Ox acid? Oxalic acid is what you used, I assume. What does this do? Do I use it straight or dilute and to what ratio?
Tim Teed said
May 2, 2015
Based on the strength of SH we get, I would go at 1/2 - 1% SH. It will immediately start to lighten. Then rinse well with booster pump and then bleach wash. I would actually use the wood restore and charge a premium. You will get amazing results so video tape and photos. Bring a friend to video tape. Practice on back and then do a show on the front. We just did a wood split rail fence that turned out great.
Michael Derose said
May 3, 2015
Chad we use 12 Oz to a gallon. I would try the wood restore but I would like a sample to see if it's worth it to order a 5 gallon pail.
Michael Derose said
May 3, 2015
The ox stops the bleaching effect.
John Aloisio said
May 3, 2015
Mike
can I use those pics!!
Michael Derose said
May 3, 2015
I have to ask the other guy first to make sure it's ok!
John Aloisio said
May 3, 2015
Lol
AC Lockyer said
May 3, 2015
Michael Derose wrote:
Chad we use 12 Oz to a gallon. I would try the wood restore but I would like a sample to see if it's worth it to order a 5 gallon pail.
Wood Restore will also be available in 1 gallons as well as 5's 30's 55's and 275's.
AC
Michael Derose said
May 3, 2015
Ac send me a sample and if I like it I'll get a 5.
Jason Mariano said
May 7, 2015
Chad,
We are cleaning a cedar roof this week. I use a 2% all the time . rinse rinse rinse . Thats all I can say. Cleaning cedar is a long process. Feel free to call me with questions.
-- Edited by Jason Mariano on Thursday 7th of May 2015 11:13:37 PM
-- Edited by Jason Mariano on Thursday 7th of May 2015 11:14:14 PM
-- Edited by Jason Mariano on Thursday 7th of May 2015 11:14:35 PM
-- Edited by Jason Mariano on Thursday 7th of May 2015 11:19:36 PM
-- Edited by Jason Mariano on Thursday 7th of May 2015 11:20:37 PM
Wood Restore is being packaged now and will be on the shelves end of next week.
AC
Jason Mariano said
May 8, 2015
Thanks Paul.
Dan Dykstra said
May 10, 2015
Chad,
Do not be afraid of that cedar shake, it will clean up and look awesome when you are done.
A.C. - looking forward to trying the new wood restore.
Chad Eneix said
May 29, 2015
Ok, this project was pushed back as this customer travels for work and has been away for several weeks. I did the demo, pics below, 2% with 2 treatments, brushing, and lots of rinsing, neutralized with oxalic acid. I think overall it went well, but I want to be able to answer any questions he may have.
On the shake, I am wondering if the black stains on the top of most shakes, just below where they overlap will come completely off. I think some of them got a little lighter, but in a lot of places, these are still very black. Also, if anyone knows what this is, I would like to speak to the customer with some authority on it if it comes up. I actually found an inconspicuous place and "dug" a tiny slit into one of the shakes with a pocket knife. This blackness goes pretty deep in to the wood. One guess I had was maybe they used tar paper as a moisture barrier under the siding, and it is leaching on to the shingles??
The stone, as you can see in the pics, turned out great.
Chad I think the wood shake siding demo turned out great!
What I can offer on roof slope wood shake installations in general (not to be confused with wood shingle) is that there always is an 18" layer of #30lb roofing felt (tar paper) between each course of shakes. When installed as siding, like your photos, it may or may not be between each course of shakes but there is definitely a water barrier of some sort beneath them. Here in CA there most likely would be a 36" #30lb felt applied flat to the wall under a shake siding like that.
Tim Teed said
May 30, 2015
Bruce Sullivan does a good job of explaining what the black is. - A wood fungus. Its the same you get on any porous wood surface. The ambient moisture makes a good environment for the spores to get established and then to eat into the wood making it soft. Thats why softwashing is great for this. We did a cedar shingle mansard roof(steep) this week that turned out great. We added 4 - 6 ounces of roof snot so that it clings better or use more greenwash. Make sure you spray up to get the bottom of the shakes. You shouldn't have to scrub with brush. The only time you may scrub is if there is some lichen or moss. We use Terra Wash for the cedar
-- Edited by AC Lockyer on Sunday 31st of May 2015 10:25:14 PM
AC Lockyer said
May 31, 2015
Tim,
I like Bruce but I dont want to advertise for him....lol Please dont post links to competitors websites even if they are friendly competition. I removed the link.
Thanks,
AC
Chad Eneix said
Jun 1, 2015
So, I guess I am still not clear. Photo 2 above is an after photo of my demo spot, with the black areas just under the overlap still very evident.
If I increase the dwell time or treat with more applications, will this blackness come out, or should I tell the customer this is a stain that will not come out in some places?
Also, if I treat long enough or strong enough to get every bit of the black stains out, will the rest of the wood be too bleached out by then?
I treated this twice with 2%, about a 5 minute dwell time each treatment. I actually re-sprayed the very black overlap areas during each treatment dwell time. I'm certain I got the bottom and overlap areas of these shakes, as I was standing right in front of the test area. My bleach was plenty hot enough, and I used some extra TW in my mix.
I do think overall the house will look much better either way, but I want to achieve the best results possible, and inform the customer correctly if there are questions.
Michael Derose said
Jun 1, 2015
You may need to just go to a 3% mix.
Josh Agadoni said
Nov 3, 2016
Hey Chad,
How did this job turn out for you? What strength mix and other steps did you end up taking? I have a similar situation that I'm bidding on right now and trying to problem solve and I could use any insight you might have gained.
Thanks!
Chad Eneix said
Nov 5, 2016
I was told a lot of different things by different people regarding this project. I tried several things on a couple of occasions, but the black areas just under the overlap did not come off. 3%, more GW, more TW, etc. did not work well. I talked to a guy who used to work for a wood restoration company, and he said that it would probably require oxalic and that they would always pressure wash. I also talked to a guy out of Iowa referenced earlier in this post, but it did not seem as though he was doing much different, the "buy in" just allowed you to market yourself as an expert trained by him.
This customer decided to go with another quote from a wood restoration company, and I kind of led them in that direction. I decided after this and a couple other projects that I do not want to get in to the restoration of wood. I tell customers who want decks, shake, wood siding, etc. cleaned that I will clean the roof, killing all the algae and stuff, and that the green and dark surface stuff will be gone. Many folks are happy with that, and a lot of times we exceed expectations and do restore some color. I always do a demo for wood customers so they know what to expect. If they want the color and look of a "like new" wood, I refer them to a restoration company. I am currently still looking for one to develop a relationship with that won't infringe on my other business.
We did go back and do the asphalt shingles and the stone. The company that he had did a great job, and they did use a pressure washer, probably a very low psi one.
Sorry I couldn't help.
Josh Agadoni said
Nov 9, 2016
Thanks, Chad. That was still very helpful. I want to make sure I don't get in over my head or in some way over-promise for what I can actually provide for this home owner. I got some oxalic acid, now I need to schedule a time to return and try adding that to the process. Truthfully I'm no longer very hopeful that I'll be able to revive this siding in any meaningful way, but we'll see...
Tim Teed said
Nov 14, 2016
Unless you are super slow or you want to get into wood restoration, I believe it is best to refer siding and decks to someone. I always demo wood siding so they know what they will get with just wood wash.
Josh Agadoni said
Nov 16, 2016
Thanks, Tim. I am neither of those things right now, so I'll do the demo with the Oxalic and see if it gets a good result, otherwise I'm not going to push it anymore on this one. I was curious more than anything to see how the SoftWash would do on this guy's house. We got the RFP because the homeowner had a pressure washing company come out to bid the job and they (wisely) said that they couldn't do it, and to find a company who does SoftWashing. This was huge, because still almost no one knows about SoftWashing here in San Diego. So I wanted to see if I could capitalize on the opportunity...
We don't have a lot of cedar shake in my area, and where I do have it, I have not marketed to heavily. I have done some cedar plank siding to prep for staining, but have not yet tackled shake siding. I received a call from a customer who recently purchased a home built in the 60's with cedar shake that probably has never been maintained. I know there is more of this in the PNW and NE states. Below are some pics.
I have several questions. First, should I tackle this at all, or recommend a wood restoration company? Second, if I do this, what sort of results could I (and the customer) expect? If you have advice and have done a project like this, pics would be helpful. Third, any advice on the process would be greatly appreciated.
Chad, there are several SWS companies doing a large amount of cedar shingle and cedar shake restoration. Jay Mariano on the Jersey Shore does tons, and has a wide array of pictures.
You need to start with right % solution. Sometimes 2% is adequate, sometimes you need 4%. From your pictures, I think 2% is sufficient. You want to be careful not to "bleach out" the shake. Pre wet the shake. This opens the spores of the micro fungus. Spray your solution and let it dwell 5-10 minutes. The dwell time is determined by the amount of fungus, similar to the % solution needed.
The pictures show more weathering than fungus, so less dwell time. Then rinse and rinse some more. In highly infested cedar shake, you can treat it once and rinse the rest of the day. Although I have yet to try the new Wood Restore by SWS, what I've read tells me you want to use it as your final treatment to bring out the desired color and as a protectant.
AC just started a thread on Wood Restore on the BB. You will want to read through that. Lots of good info. on a brand new product. I'm ordering some on Monday.
There is enough information on cedar shakes on the BB to answer the rest of your questions. I would get comfortable with the process and take on the project. Remember to add enough time into your quote for rinsing, then returning later to treat with Wood Restore.
Chad we hit this siding with a 2 % mix. We prewet the siding first then applied the mix let dwell then touched up as necessary. After we applied ox acid then rinsed again. This was the result.
Thanks, that looks really good. Ox acid? Oxalic acid is what you used, I assume. What does this do? Do I use it straight or dilute and to what ratio?
Mike
can I use those pics!!
Lol
Wood Restore will also be available in 1 gallons as well as 5's 30's 55's and 275's.
AC
Chad,
We are cleaning a cedar roof this week. I use a 2% all the time . rinse rinse rinse . Thats all I can say. Cleaning cedar is a long process. Feel free to call me with questions.
-- Edited by Jason Mariano on Thursday 7th of May 2015 11:13:37 PM
-- Edited by Jason Mariano on Thursday 7th of May 2015 11:14:14 PM
-- Edited by Jason Mariano on Thursday 7th of May 2015 11:14:35 PM
-- Edited by Jason Mariano on Thursday 7th of May 2015 11:19:36 PM
-- Edited by Jason Mariano on Thursday 7th of May 2015 11:20:37 PM
AC
Do not be afraid of that cedar shake, it will clean up and look awesome when you are done.
A.C. - looking forward to trying the new wood restore.
Ok, this project was pushed back as this customer travels for work and has been away for several weeks. I did the demo, pics below, 2% with 2 treatments, brushing, and lots of rinsing, neutralized with oxalic acid. I think overall it went well, but I want to be able to answer any questions he may have.
On the shake, I am wondering if the black stains on the top of most shakes, just below where they overlap will come completely off. I think some of them got a little lighter, but in a lot of places, these are still very black. Also, if anyone knows what this is, I would like to speak to the customer with some authority on it if it comes up. I actually found an inconspicuous place and "dug" a tiny slit into one of the shakes with a pocket knife. This blackness goes pretty deep in to the wood. One guess I had was maybe they used tar paper as a moisture barrier under the siding, and it is leaching on to the shingles??
The stone, as you can see in the pics, turned out great.
Any expertise would be appreciated.
What I can offer on roof slope wood shake installations in general (not to be confused with wood shingle) is that there always is an 18" layer of #30lb roofing felt (tar paper) between each course of shakes. When installed as siding, like your photos, it may or may not be between each course of shakes but there is definitely a water barrier of some sort beneath them. Here in CA there most likely would be a 36" #30lb felt applied flat to the wall under a shake siding like that.
Bruce Sullivan does a good job of explaining what the black is. - A wood fungus. Its the same you get on any porous wood surface. The ambient moisture makes a good environment for the spores to get established and then to eat into the wood making it soft. Thats why softwashing is great for this. We did a cedar shingle mansard roof(steep) this week that turned out great. We added 4 - 6 ounces of roof snot so that it clings better or use more greenwash. Make sure you spray up to get the bottom of the shakes. You shouldn't have to scrub with brush. The only time you may scrub is if there is some lichen or moss. We use Terra Wash for the cedar
-- Edited by AC Lockyer on Sunday 31st of May 2015 10:25:14 PM
I like Bruce but I dont want to advertise for him....lol Please dont post links to competitors websites even if they are friendly competition. I removed the link.
Thanks,
AC
If I increase the dwell time or treat with more applications, will this blackness come out, or should I tell the customer this is a stain that will not come out in some places?
Also, if I treat long enough or strong enough to get every bit of the black stains out, will the rest of the wood be too bleached out by then?
I treated this twice with 2%, about a 5 minute dwell time each treatment. I actually re-sprayed the very black overlap areas during each treatment dwell time. I'm certain I got the bottom and overlap areas of these shakes, as I was standing right in front of the test area. My bleach was plenty hot enough, and I used some extra TW in my mix.
I do think overall the house will look much better either way, but I want to achieve the best results possible, and inform the customer correctly if there are questions.
How did this job turn out for you? What strength mix and other steps did you end up taking? I have a similar situation that I'm bidding on right now and trying to problem solve and I could use any insight you might have gained.
Thanks!
This customer decided to go with another quote from a wood restoration company, and I kind of led them in that direction. I decided after this and a couple other projects that I do not want to get in to the restoration of wood. I tell customers who want decks, shake, wood siding, etc. cleaned that I will clean the roof, killing all the algae and stuff, and that the green and dark surface stuff will be gone. Many folks are happy with that, and a lot of times we exceed expectations and do restore some color. I always do a demo for wood customers so they know what to expect. If they want the color and look of a "like new" wood, I refer them to a restoration company. I am currently still looking for one to develop a relationship with that won't infringe on my other business.
We did go back and do the asphalt shingles and the stone. The company that he had did a great job, and they did use a pressure washer, probably a very low psi one.
Sorry I couldn't help.